Lead scoring is broken, customer success marketing, Slack communities | Hana Jacover from MadKudu

Episode Description

In this episode, we chat with Hana Jacover, Director of Demand Gen at MadKudu. We cover the importance of getting lead scoring right for your org, the oversight of customer success and marketing team alignment, and the underrated insights that can be gleaned from digital communities.

Show Notes

Hana mentions Luvvie Ajayi Jones who is an ex-tech marketer turned published author.

Links

• Apple Podcasts
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• Follow Kaylee Edmondson
• Follow Hana Jacover

About Demand Gen Chat

Demand Gen Chat is a Chili Piper podcast hosted by Kaylee Edmondson. Join us as we sit down with leaders in marketing to discover the key to driving B2B revenue. If you want benchmarks or insights on trends in the market, this podcast is for you!

Episode Transcript

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:00:00] Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of Demand Gen Chat. Today, we are super excited to be joined by Hana Jacover. She is the Director of Demand Gen at MadKudu. Welcome. We're excited to have you.

Hana Jacover: [00:00:12] Hi, thanks for having me.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:00:14] Yeah, absolutely. Do we wanna kick it off quickly, 60 seconds or less, who you, who you are and what you're doin' at MadKudu?

Hana Jacover: [00:00:20] So, my name is Hana Jacover and, as you mentioned, I'm Director of Demand Gen at MadKudu. Uh, we're a marketing intelligence platform really just hoping and trying to remove [laughing] a lot of the operational challenges for, for marketing teams out there, um, and we're just looking to build programs and content and, um, all of that good stuff that falls under the demand gen umbrella that can help our, um, prospects and customers.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:00:52] Beautiful. I love it, and how long have you been at MadKudu? Where did you come from before you joined the team there?

Hana Jacover: [00:00:56] Yeah. I am approaching month six, so I'm kind of a, still a-a Kudu baby. Uh [laughs] so that's been fun. It's been a wild ride so far, but I come from a pure agency background. So, I spent nine years on the B2B agency side at a few different agencies working for a variety of different tech companies, um, helping them to build and scale their demand gen engines.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:01:22] And what moved the needle, um, for you to join the dark side and come in house-

Hana Jacover: [00:01:28] [laughs]

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:01:29] ... versus agency?

Hana Jacover: [00:01:30] Yes, that is always the question. Um, I-I love, uh, somebody told me when I first started in my career, um, one of my mentors and dear friends said working on the agency side is like dog years because you learn so much so quickly and from so many different people. Um, so I mean that was kind of like why I value that time so much.

But at, you know, I was at this point in my career where, um, I-I was feeling a little bit detached from the results of these amazing programs and strategies that we would present and build and, um, there's just kind of like a wall up and you don't get to, you don't get to follow through and I am very big on [laughs] following through with things. I'm very persistent and I enjoy seeing results and if they're not great, like how do we fix that? What's our next steps and those are things that you just don't always get on the agency side and, um, I'm a builder at heart for sure and I just really felt like I would be doing myself a disservice if I didn't take that, take my skills and everything that I've learned and try to actually have an impact and see it all the way through with a team, um, in house.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:02:51] Yeah, sure. There's like a-a feedback, a-a break, I guess, in the feedback loop-

Hana Jacover: [00:02:55] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:02:55] ... um, from being on the agency side to then just not being able to like actually dig into the CRM, right, and see what's working all the way through to revenue and, an-and what's not.

Hana Jacover: [00:03:04] Yeah.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:03:04] I agree with that. I also, um, had a slight stint at an agency, uh, B2B, serving B2B SaaS as well, um, and struggled with that very same thing just because, for me, it, I've always been in, um, somehow I've always been put in the situation where I am basically running it soup to nuts, right?

Hana Jacover: [00:03:20] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:03:20] Like strategy all the way down to reporting and analytics and that analysis piece for me is like what closes, uh, closes the gap.

Hana Jacover: [00:03:27] And I also think, you know, having worked on the agency side and seeing all of the different martech and all of the different tech stacks and hearing all of the frustrations and, um, lead scoring and lead management also being like my primary, um, area of expertise, I, like it's almost frustrating that like I couldn't do enough about it. Like I knew that me as a person, like it was a, it was a problem technology and very smart engineers and data scientists were going to solve, not me personally. So, I wanted to have an impact at that level, like where can I go as a person, as a human and have an impact on these pain points and it had to be paired with that technology.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:04:09] Yeah, absolutely, which is a natural fit for MadKudu. Um, and you talk about your personal impact and, um, skillset really being geared around lead scoring. Um, what does that stem from? Like what is your stance on lead scoring and the importance of it or the need for it?

Hana Jacover: [00:04:23] Um, well, you know, I'm a little [laughs] biased given-

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:04:26] Yeah. [laughs]

Hana Jacover: [00:04:26] ... given where I work, but it is critical to also understand like why are you doing lead scoring and how is it set up? Like who is it benefiting?

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:04:33] Right. Right, and I wanna talk about that. I wanna talk about that point specifically because I think everybody mentions lead scoring and it's mentioned often, right? It's a very common buzzword in our, in our arena, but I've also come into a lot of orgs and even, on like the agency side, gotten the opportunity to work with a lot of orgs-

Hana Jacover: [00:04:50] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:04:51] ... who are lead scoring to, you know, a certain threshold, whatever your magic number is, just so that they can say you've, you know, viewed a random page enough times to be able to score up to be able to pass over to an SDR or a BDR-

Hana Jacover: [00:05:03] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:05:03] ... so that you can get talked to. Um, but to me, that's broken, right? That doesn't mean they're like expressing the right amount of the intent, um, to be surfaced to an SDR. To actually have that conversation, you're taking up a lot of time and resources internally for your team, uh, for somebody who might not yet really be in buying mode, but I would love to hear your take on that.

Hana Jacover: [00:05:26] Yeah, no, I completely agree and, um, it's just really subjective. Like manual lead scoring is-

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:05:30] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Hana Jacover: [00:05:31] ... totally subjective. I've run hundreds of lead scoring workshops and it's sitting down with the sales and marketing leaders and, um, first of all, from that like you're missing product, you're missing, like you're missing a lot of the team there. You're missing even customer success. Like everybody should be involved in that conversation, but it's really just a wishlist. What you're given-

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:05:53] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Hana Jacover: [00:05:53] ... is a wishlist. It's very subjective. When you start infusing technology and thinking about it from the level of we're going to look historically at data and, and infuse all of these different areas, whether it's product data, whether it's website data, all of the signals that are happening, um, that you probably wouldn't think about sitting down in that meeting and that's how we're building the model. It's, it's not, we're removing that subjectivity around, um, "Hey, this is our, this is our number just because we like these five attributes and anybody who hits those is an MQL."

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:06:32] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Hana Jacover: [00:06:33] So, it's more impactful because you can see that these signals, these things that are happening are actually more indicative of, you know, somebody becoming an opportunity, um, somebody becoming a customer. It's, it's removing that guess work really.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:06:51] Yeah. No, I love that, and I think those are like some really actionable takeaways too, especially pulling in, um, leaders from other departments that aren't just sales and marketing into-

Hana Jacover: [00:07:00] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:07:00] ... that conversation, right, because we all, we all look at lead scoring with a very different lens, um, and I think like customer success is really interesting that you bring them up, uh, as being, as having a seat at the table.

Hana Jacover: [00:07:12] Yeah, 'cause I mean they're talking to your customers every day, right? Like you, and that, that information is so valuable to understand, okay, like we think we know what, what our prospects, our, our pain, their pain points are, but, you know, thinking about our best customers or our customers where we need to work on the relationship. Like what are the key points, like what are the pain points that are happening there and how can we learn from that?

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:07:39] Yeah, absolutely. No, and I-I think that's just like a valuable, um, insight that, even for me, like wasn't top of mind before you just said it, but it just makes total sense. Um, before we get into the weeds too much, I wanna understand more about your structure right now at MadKudu, um, what does demand gen look for y'all, look like for y'all, what is your lanes of responsibility and where does, I guess, where do your swim lanes kinda stop and the next, uh, team member's begin?

Hana Jacover: [00:08:06] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, so o-on the marketing side, um, we really sit in the go to market team alongside sales, so we are making all of these decisions together. Our weekly team meeting is together versus just like marketing versus sales. Uh, so I will say like that's, and I know that's how a lot of startups are, uh, their teams are structured and I think it's, it's definitely valuable to have that alignment and collaboration.

Um, and then we're a three woman marketing team [laughs], so we have, um, a VP of marketing, Laura Kendall, uh, director of demand gen, me, uh, and then we have an amazing hybrid content product marketing manager. So um, that role has been really interesting to kind of see how we're blending, you know, the ownership of creating assets alongside product marketing, which, um, I think is, is something that we'll probably start to see more of.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:09:08] Yeah, that's actually interesting. I haven't talked to anyone yet who has a hybrid role like that. Um, did y'all have a different setup before bringing this role in house in this hybrid banner or has it always been hybrid for y'all?

Hana Jacover: [00:09:19] Uh, well, so, we are actually, so the director of demand gen role, my role and, um, the content product marketing manager role, we are actually like second and third marketing hires.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:09:30] Oh, I love it. So, totally new team?

Hana Jacover: [00:09:32] [laughs] Yeah.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:09:32] New dynamic.

Hana Jacover: [00:09:33] Totally new team. Um, and to get into your other question, so like based on these roles, we kind of have three different buckets and, um, on the demand gen side, like my objective is to really build that repeatable process. Um, that could mean a lot of things, but experimentation, understanding the various channels, what programs are resonating. Um, and then, you know, you asked about where things end, it's, we really think of it as like this fly wheel, right? Like we all can have an impact on the different stages in the funnel.

So, yes, we're looking at things like qualified conversions, we're looking at things like MQLs, we're looking at things like SQLs, but we're also going beyond that. So, we partner again because we're on this go to market team. We partner very closely with sales to, you know, whether that's at the very bottom of the funnel and we're trying to push a deal across the line that's been in the pipe for, I don't, six months, um, or whether it's at the top of the funnel and we're looking at lead generation.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:10:39] Or even something that's also interesting, um, that I think is maybe not the norm, but will become the norm over time. Um, typically, at least in any conversation I've ever had or any role I've personally held, demand gen is looked at as net new business, um, but we have also rolled customer marketing expansion initiatives into demand gen-

Hana Jacover: [00:11:00] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:11:00] ... um, which I think makes total sense, right? You're already conducting all of these experiments and running all of these programs, um, to try and figure out what works best to your audience, so why should expansion opportunities be treated any differently?

Hana Jacover: [00:11:11] Yeah, absolutely. And that actually is a good segue into like, so that demand gen pillar is kind of just, and it's, and I would say it's targeted demand gen too, um, and then our next pillar is thinking about thought leadership and content and really making sure that we're producing the assets and, um, whether, whether that be educational or more so consideration, um, or, you know, sales enablement and really thinking about, "Okay, what do we need to create for our audience?" And then we also have a community pillar, which is kind of what you were speaking to and that is an area where we can work very closely with our customer success team to make sure that we're not only building a community for our customers, but then, um, have the ability on the marketing side to broaden that community out to, um, our, our broader audience.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:12:03] Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think it all makes sense to kind of have it in tandem and I don't know at what point in marketing's evolution, um, customer marketing or community efforts kind of became its own division of-

Hana Jacover: [00:12:14] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

b [00:12:15] ... I'm sure for larger companies, that makes the most sense, but even at some of the small companies I've been exposed to, I don't know that a lot of people are considering, um, customer marketing or expansion opportunities within a demand gen division.

Hana Jacover: [00:12:27] Yeah, yeah, agreed, and I-I, again, I'll say just working with the customer success team, I think we're going to see a lot more of that where marketing teams and CS teams are really aligned. Um, and I would say too like our, um, Jess, our product, uh, uh, product marketing manager, is, is kind of like this bridge. Like she really does a good job of bridging everything together because where thinking about, "Okay, what are our customers saying? What do they need? What are our prospects saying? What do they need?," and then rolling that up into these really valuable topics that then I can use to attract new people, um, or inspire people that are-

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:13:14] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Hana Jacover: [00:13:15] ... already in the funnel.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:13:16] And you talked about your content pillar and I wanna make sure that we touch on that too because, uh, that's honestly how I first kind of got wrapped up in following all of y'all, um, because of all the wonderful content that you're putting out into the world as part of your demand gen or go to market strategy. Um, what are some of those pillars, those content pillars right now that y'all are working on and which ones are proving to be like most fruitful or successful?

Hana Jacover: [00:13:37] So, I would say we definitely have kind of, um, two main pillars where one, we're talking about product led growth, so we're speaking about what that product led growth journey looks like, what are the challenges within that, uh, journey and then getting a little bit more technical into like how do you actually operationalize, um, something like PLG, how do you actually manage multiple funnels and things like that?

Um, and then we have this marketing ops audience that we also speak to, so we're thinking about, you know, what are, again, some of the more, uh, not necessarily PLG, but more general pain points that the marketing ops audience comes across on a regular basis. And, um, that has been a really awesome pillar that we've actually been able to leverage a lot of thought leadership from the actual marketing ops community.

So, we're talking to marketing ops leaders every single week and we're, we're, we're hearing exactly what their pain points are and how they're solving them and that is A, really inspiring for everybody in the community, in the marketing ops community. Um, it allows them to kind of amplify, these thought leaders amplify their voices and then it also provides us with a firsthand look at those pain points and then we can take all of that and, um, distribute it, well, create, um, you know, varying levels of content and redistribute it, it out.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:15:03] Yeah, absolutely, and I wanna get into the weeds. Like I would love, um, if you feel comfortable like sharing your secret sauce. I would love to know, uh, what your distribution plan looks like, like what are your primary channels, what channels are working the best, um, like how much testing have you done in terms of, um, content types like especially for repurposing, um, like all that content that you all are producing within your marketing ops confession sessions-

Hana Jacover: [00:15:27] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:15:27] ... um, is really powerful stuff. So, what does, what does it look like after the conversation has been conducted, what's happening internally in terms of, um, repurposing that content and then distributing it on appropriate channels?

Hana Jacover: [00:15:38] Yeah, yeah. Great question. So, after the conversation happens, um, we make the full recording available of course and then one thing that we have a lotta success with is, um, creating snippets from that main video. Um, and this kind of goes along with, with any of our video types of content where we'll just kind of take the, the golden nuggets from there and, um, produce its own stand alone snippets, so then we can push that out on our channels. And then we'll also, if there's an opportunity to kind of like merge that into a blog post and distill some of the key points there, um, that's something that we'll do. And then also, um, especially for a series like this where we have so many great people contributing, it's really important that we start thinking about a larger asset. You know, we're, we're taking polls-

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:16:33] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Hana Jacover: [00:16:35] ... during these sessions, we're asking a lot of great questions that, um, you know, we're getting kind of this pulse check among the community. So, what can we do with that data? Um, you know, what is a larger asset that we can then create, um, whether it's kind of like a marketing ops book of sorts, uh, ebook, so that's kind of like our next step with marketing ops confessions is, is making sure that we can create, put that all together and create a really meaty valuable asset there.

Um, and in terms of channels, you know, I think LinkedIn is still primarily like a really great channel for us just because it's where our audience is. Um, and I would also say like having all of these like micro Slack communities pop up in the last, you know, I know they've been around, but like really exploding the last year or so has become a-a-a great channel for us because, again, like it allows us to get so close to people and, and not just kind of like throw our name out there, but answer questions and be the expert and add unique perspectives. Um, so that's been a really great channel for both just engagement and making sure that we're, we're there to help answer questions and point things out and, and you know, help people pick a lane, um, but then also, um, you know, distri-distributing our content as well.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:18:03] Exactly, and it also like Slack communities to me are very interesting 'cause like you said, um, they're not necessarily new, but I think that the way in which they're being used is really evolving over time because there are so many of them that people can be involved in. Um, like I know that my own, I'm quite active on a lot of Slack communities, so my own Slack thread has so many icons beside it and the different Slack pockets that I can hop into throughout the day. But I think that, over time, the way that we are using those channels has really evolved, um, because there just is so much competition and I, you know, at first, I feel like Slack communities were a place for you to sell yourself-

Hana Jacover: [00:18:39] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:18:39] ... sell your brand, your personal brand, your business, whatever it was, like your pitch, it became like an elevator pitch, um, montage so to say-

Hana Jacover: [00:18:48] Right.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:18:48] ... but, um, people really got over that. Those types of communities weren't very successful, right, and now, you know, there are all these rules in place to say like, "This is the place for you to provide value." And so, especially as a brand, being able to hop into some of these communities and see what people are talking about organically without it being, you know, like um, a-a webinar discussion or a led conversation from-

Hana Jacover: [00:19:08] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:19:08] ... a brand, um, getting that natural, more organic exposure to the pain points people are having, um, and the solutions that others are serving up for them is so valuable, especially from a brand perspective, um, and even for us as we're kind of, um, discovering new markets, new verticals, new personas to go after. Um, seeing that like untapped authenticity that's being expressed in Slack communities-

Hana Jacover: [00:19:35] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:19:36] ... has been huge. What does the next phase of growth look like for MadKudu? What are some of the things that are coming down the pipe that y'all have planned that you can mention? Um, and if everything's like secretive, that's also fine. But would love to know some things that you're starting to work on now, like you have found a real niche within this marketing ops confessions. Do you have other plans that are in that same vein or something entirely different?

Hana Jacover: [00:19:55] Yeah. I-I think, you know, on the marketing side, like from my perspective, I just get excited about the opportunity to be super creative in our programs. Like we know, we know the nuts and bolts, we know what the foundation needs to look at so that, look like so then we can start thinking about, "But how do we do this creatively?" So, that's what I'm most excited about is just the continuation of, um, these programs that we can think about, um, outside of like the traditional sense of B2B marketing because B2B is so boring and we don't wanna do that anymore. [laughs]

Um, so whether it's our branding, which, you know, people come to our site and they love our branding and they say, "Wow, it's so different," um, and, or our messaging or anything along those lines like, "How can we do this a little bit differently that, um, breaks the mold and is not boring?" So, that's one thing I'm excited about, um, and you'll see kind of infused into all of our programs.

But then also, I mean, something that we will continue to do that excites me all the time is just seeing the value that we bring to our customers. Hearing those stories and working with them closely to understand like, "What are, what are we solving for you? How are we, how is MadKudu making your life easier and what does that value look like?" And just the diversity of answers and, um, you know, seeing that evolve is exciting.

And then of course, um, continuing to see just all of the iterations of the product, which of, you know, again, like our customers, we really rely on, on their input to help make MadKudu better every single day an-and the evolution of the roadmap and then just getting the opportunity to witness, um, you know, seeing the roadmap and then witnessing things being executed and implemented in the tool and then using the tool myself because, on the marketing side, like we obviously drink our own champagne and, and use MadKudu as well. So, that's obviously very excited to see the evolution of the tool.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:21:58] I love to hear all the things you're excited about. I, um, also want to make sure that we talk about your own personal adventures, um, because I think you do a lot of things that are outside of your direct relationship with MadKudu that I think are pretty topical and relevant. Um, I know that you and a few friends, I don't know if they're friends or colleagues, um, have a Clubhouse adventure that you all are-

Hana Jacover: [00:22:22] [laughs]

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:22:22] ... actively doing. I would love to hear about it. We actually just had an episode, uh, with Scott Stratten where we talked about Clubhouse and I think that I am in one camp and I think that you are in the other, um, in terms of the success or, um, potential engagement rate on Clubhouse, but I think that y'all are finding success. [laughs] I'd love to hear about it.

Hana Jacover: [00:22:42] [laughs] Yeah, well, I will ha-, put a disclaimer out there that we've actually taken like a little bit of a hiatus from our Clubhouse.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:22:49] [laughs]

Hana Jacover: [00:22:50] Um, so maybe I'm like slowly coming into your camp. [laughs] Um-

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:22:54] [laughs] I love it.

Hana Jacover: [00:22:56] ... but no, um, a few of my agency friends, we've always wanted to do a series that, called Campaigns and Cocktails and, um, we just were like, when Clubhouse popped up, we thought it would be a great way to just kind of kickstart it and see what would happen. Uh, so we just started this weekly chat where we talked about campaigns and drank cocktails [laughing] and it was really fun and, um, we, we kind of always start with like other people's creative, which was a tradition from one of our, our other agencies and then we selected a topic, whether it's, um, ABM, lead management, uh, you name it, content, like technology and then kinda dug into that, uh, on the weekly episode and let people ask questions and things like that.

But what I will say is that I feel the audience on Clubhouse is a little bit outside of like the people that we're wanting to reach. I think that it has potential, but you know, like our latest conversations, we were like, "Maybe we should just have this more available and have it as like a monthly meetup versus being tied to one platform like Clubhouse," which is something I'm sure you've been thinking about too. [laughs]

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:24:17] Yeah. I think the miss for me is that we put so much work and effort into prepping for, you know, an episode, whether it be hosted on, you know, Zoom or Clubhouse or wherever. We put so much work and effort into prepping for this content to take place for it to be gone essentially on Clubhouse. The minute that you say it-

Hana Jacover: [00:24:39] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:24:39] ... it's gone, right? Um, it's not able to be captured or repurposed or evergreen in any way. Um, I don't know, and I just feel like, especially in marketing and, and I guess in any role, especially in B2B tech, um, for a fast growing startup, we are wearing so many hats and doing so many things-

Hana Jacover: [00:24:56] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:24:56] ... that for me to spend the amount of time and effort it would take to get a Clubhouse, you know, production episode together and it to be gone the minute that I speak would just be, I don't know, kind of like anti-climactic to say the least. I don't know how else to describe it, but it seems like such a waste of effort, um, because it's only good for that one moment in time and if your audience isn't on Clubhouse or if you're audience isn't there at the moment, then it's gone, right?

Hana Jacover: [00:25:24] Yeah, because we, because our goal was engagement. Our goal wasn't like lead gen, our goal wasn't repurposing content. It was really like, "Let's see if we can engage this audience because we all love to talk [laughs] and-"

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:25:39] [laughs]

Hana Jacover: [00:25:39] "... let's just see if we can be helpful. Like can we answer questions? Can we give back and can we talk about some of the things that, um, are exciting us?" And, and it wasn't initially kind of to, um, like the goal wasn't like lead gen or anything like that, but so, for a brand, I think that it could be very difficult because it really is, it's gonna be a brand play. It's gonna be just you're there and others can see that you're there and join these conversations and go back and reference, you know, "Okay, well then I'm gonna go. I see Hana's at MadKudu, I'm gonna go to the MadKudu website and check that out." Um, but again, like that's really a brand play.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:26:18] Yeah, absolutely, and even outside of that, it's like building your audience, right? So, yes, I'm here for engagement and of course that is like a great initiative for even, you know, for brands to partake in, um, but the audience has to be there.

Hana Jacover: [00:26:31] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:26:31] Right? And I think that building, building an audience from scratch maybe, especially in the Clubhouse forum is harder than it would be to tap into the audiences that you already know are on LinkedIn and are on Twitter, um, and maybe already, you know, know about your blog and subscribe to your updates or whatever it is, right?

Hana Jacover: [00:26:48] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:26:48] Like where is your niche and where is your audience? You almost just have to, um, produce content, almost like you were mentioning earlier, multi-format so that wherever your audience is, they can consume it and I think that Clubhouse doesn't fit into that mold. Um, like if your audience is on Clubhouse, that's great-

Hana Jacover: [00:27:05] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:27:05] ... but it means you're gonna have to go and, you know, you're gonna have to go and do what we're doing right now, get on a-a Zencastr, record it, produce it for the Facebooks, LinkedIns, Twitters of the world and then you're gonna, gonna have to go separately have the same-ish conversation again-

Hana Jacover: [00:27:18] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:27:18] ... on Clubhouse, right? That's, I think that's the problem is that Clubhouse doesn't allow for a multi-format production.

Hana Jacover: [00:27:27] Yeah, yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head. If your audience isn't there, you know, take it off your list. Don't do it 'cause it's just, it's gonna become too much and it's not scalable.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:27:37] Sure, yeah, right. Let's just go dabble in all of these new markets 'cause, again, like, um, there's also this, you know, this game of real estate, right, and being the first to market, I mean, the first to do it well-

Hana Jacover: [00:27:48] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:27:49] ... um, right? If Clubhouse was, is gonna be the next thing and you're one of the people on that platform that's building an audience and finding success there, then the earlier you can get there and kind of claim that land, the more successful that you'll be.

Hana Jacover: [00:28:03] Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:28:04] So now that's the mentality I think for all marketers, right, is that we're all here to be exposed to new avenues and new channels and new ideas to test. Like that's just part of the game and I think Clubhouse was a big test and I-I am waiting for the day that somebody comes at me and says, "No, like we found it. Clubhouse is working great for us and here's how we're doing it."

Hana Jacover: [00:28:22] Yeah, well, ring me up when you, uh, find that person. [laughs]

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:28:26] [laughing] I'll be sure to do that. No, 100%. So, last question before we go. I always like to ask what is another, who's another marketer, another book, another podcast, something else in the space that you're consuming that others could go follow, listen to, subscribe to, et cetera?

Hana Jacover: [00:28:44] Ooh, that's a good question. Um, I'm gonna say somebody that is a little bit different. Um, her name is [Lavia Jahi 00:28:53], uh, Lavia Jahi Jones, um, and she is kind of an ex-technology marketer and veered off because she has this amazing personal branding and she talks all about fear and imposter syndrome and how to, um, push all of that to the side [laughs] so you can be better in your life, in your role, in, you know, all facets and I, she's also an amazing black woman.

Um, so I-I think that that is somebody that, especially people that are a little bit younger in their careers should check out. She's got two great books. She is a marketer and, uh, that I really respect and that I've also had the opportunity to chat with and have found her stories and her storytelling and, um, the things that she has learned about being a black woman in tech and overcoming all of that to be her best self is really inspiring.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:29:53] I love that. Yes, absolutely, and we will link all of that in the show notes for anybody who wants to follow her or check out her books after that. What is the best way for listeners to keep up with you? What channels are you most active on?

Hana Jacover: [00:30:05] I'm probably most active on LinkedIn. I also am on Twitter @HanaJacover. Um, I'll do a little bit more like ranty things mostly about my toddler there [laughs] and then, um, yeah, I-I am kind of like in a, in a variety of different Slack channels, but probably LinkedIn and Twitter are the number one ways.

Kaylee Edmondson: [00:30:26] Beautiful. I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here and have a chat with me today. Um, hopefully the audience found this fun and engaging as well. Um, if you are listening to this and you like this content, please feel free to leave us a review. It helps us bring more content like this your way. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.