Creating B2B Events That Convert

Mark Kilens, Airmeet's CMO, highlights the importance of creating engaging live and online events that convert, building a strong community and ecosystem, and utilizing a content machine to achieve product/market fit and go-to-market fit.

This MasterSaaS Live also emphasizes the significance of engaging with the ideal customer profile and using content in conjunction with performance-based marketing, while recognizing the value of human connection alongside AI technology in enhancing business experiences.

‍Building a Strong Community and Ecosystem

One of the most effective ways to achieve success in event marketing is to build a strong community and ecosystem around your brand.

According to Mark Kilens, this can be achieved by focusing on content creation, developing strong partnerships, and leveraging integrations with other tools and platforms.

By creating a content machine with strong inertia, companies can drive engagement and build a loyal following of customers and partners.

This approach can lead to increased retention, co-marketing, and co-selling opportunities.

Engaging with the Ideal Customer Profile

Understanding your ideal customer profile (ICP) is critical to creating successful events that resonate with your target audience.

Alina Vandenberghe emphasized the importance of engaging with the ICP and tailoring content to their interests and needs.

By creating content that converts, businesses can drive demand and revenue marketing, while also building a people-first go-to-market.

This requires genuine passion and an open mind from the content creator, who should be willing to learn more about their topic and engage with their audience.

Balancing AI and Human Connection

As AI becomes more prevalent in the business world, it's important not to lose sight of the value of human connection in creating memorable experiences.

Mark Kilens emphasized the importance of creating live experiences and then scaling that content to reach a broader audience.

By prioritizing human connection and leveraging technology to enhance the experience, businesses can create events that are both impactful and scalable.

Wrap up

Event marketing is an essential component of any successful go-to-market strategy.

By focusing on community building, engaging with the ideal customer profile, and balancing AI with human connection, businesses can create unforgettable live and online events that drive meaningful engagement and foster strong connections.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Alina Vandenberghe: I have Mark today at SaaS Open. We're gonna talk about events and how to make them exciting. I am extra, uh, interested in talking to Mark because he's been at HubSpot and, uh, Drift doing amazing things. And as a marketer, I've been a big fan of the work, uh, that he's done before, so I'm curious to learn his secrets. Hopefully, uh, we're gonna get to some of them today.

[00:00:22] Mark: [laughs] Thank you so much.

[00:00:23] Alina Vandenberghe: What go you into marketing Mark?

[00:00:25] Mark: So I did some undergraduate research. I had, you know, a business degree, uh, two minors, but through this, like, undergraduate research I did and the education around that, I started to quickly realize that education is such a powerful thing when used correctly. And then I kinda started to realize, wait a minute, marketing is a lot of just education if done well.

[00:00:46] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:46] Mark: So like, if I could take this passion for teaching people how to change for the better and apply that in the context of a business, that can be interesting. So like, that's how I stumbled into marketing.

[00:00:56] Alina Vandenberghe: How, um, did the HubSpot experience? You've been there eight, eight years.

[00:01:00] Mark: Yeah.

[00:01:00] Alina Vandenberghe: Um, how did it shape your, uh, trajectory as a marketer?

[00:01:04] Mark: I, more than anyone could imagine. I joke that I got two, uh, SAS MBAs when I was at HubSpot, like, you know, one before the IPO, one after the IPO. And it taught me the most important thing, which is, get as close as you can to your customers and learn from them. And, uh, use revenue as a real, revenue and retention as a really strong signal to, to, to knowing if you're doing the right type of marketing.

[00:01:29] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:29] Mark: Right? Like, don't, don't think about leads, necessarily, don't think about just meetings, think about the customers that are signing up, that are sticking with you, and then think about how you can get more of those customers. So you are product market fit, but then you got to figure out actually how to get kind of like your go to market fit, which is the efficiency, efficiency equation which is so much of what is in play for them.

[00:01:49] Alina Vandenberghe: That resonates so much with me. I think that marketers are so much more about just running ads and writing content. They're the drivers throughout the, uh, full funnel-

[00:01:58] Mark: Yep.

[00:01:58] Alina Vandenberghe: ... um, alongside the sales team, alongside the customers and sales account managers to help them be successful and as you say, driving more of that good pipeline at the top. Um, what are some of the things that, um, are working well right now at least from your perspective, from outside at HubSpot in that direction?

[00:02:17] Mark: They've created and I was lucky to be part of this, like, multiple, you can call moats around the business.

[00:02:22] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:22] Mark: Right. What is a, a community kinda moat, right, of people? Um, bigger than that, it's the ecosystem.

[00:02:29] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:29] Mark: They linked so hard into integrations. I remember back, probably, like, right, right around when we went public, like, we're gonna double down and build a very open platform.

[00:02:37] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:38] Mark: And that has created a lot of knock on effects 'cause what does that do for marketing? Co-selling with, like, all these things that ha- that help with not only, uh, new revenue growth, but retention. Now if you look at one of the most interesting things to look at, is your retention rates as it relates to the customers that are integrating with another tool-

[00:02:58] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:58] Mark: ... that, you know, yours integrates well with. And what we found in HubSpot was, if, if someone was integrating with two more tools, their retentions were incredible. So I said, wait a minute, we just lean into that. Let's build a huge ecosystem. Um, of course, the content machine that was started early continues just to have outsized effects because of the, the, the inertia, right-

[00:03:16] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:16] Mark: ... of that content. Like, to me, those are probably the three big things that stand up.

[00:03:20] Alina Vandenberghe: When it comes to content since you've been, uh, trialing on that same trend of content Drift as well, wh- what are the secret ingredients to creating the kind of content that converts?

[00:03:29] Mark: It's a good question. I, I think the number one thing is passion.

[00:03:32] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:32] Mark: The person creating the content has to be genuinely interested in the thing that they're creating.

[00:03:38] Alina Vandenberghe: Hmm.

[00:03:38] Mark: Like, you can't fake passion, right?

[00:03:39] Alina Vandenberghe: Hmm.

[00:03:39] Mark: Like, you can probably tell, like, I'm pretty excited about marketing, right? Like, you're excited about starting companies, right? And the whole go to market thing. And at the end of the day, like, passion dictates what good content is.

[00:03:50] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:50] Mark: And that also means, though, you have to have an open mind, right? Like, you don't... No one knows anything, or, or sorry, everything. You gotta figure out how to, like, take what you're interested in learning about the audience you're trying to develop or the market you're trying to shape or create or grow and be a sponge. So the best content marketers are also just great learners. They're just love to learn more about the thing they're passionate about. And they do that by connecting with other people, pulling people into their, into their content, taking a very, like, people first approach to content marketing. You know, thinking that you might know it all is like a death wish with content, right? Like, no one knows it all. So you gotta just have an open mind and you have to be willing to try a lot of things. Like, if you're just sticking to one format, I, I think you're limiting yourself, right? If you don't try a variety of things, you- you're gonna miss an opportunity.

[00:04:37] Alina Vandenberghe: So when you, when you hire for a content writer that's passionate, in order for them to have passion for what they're writing about, ideally, they're coming from the ICP that you're writing for, does it have to be tied or how do you think about getting to, getting them to have passion for the things that they're writing about if it's a different ICP than themselves?

[00:04:54] Mark: Sure. They, they have to have directional, um, interest in, in what you're, what you're selling, but also, the vision and mission of the company.

[00:05:03] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:03] Mark: Right? So there's two things at play. One is, like, yeah, i- if they're interested in the actual product, that's way better. But if they're really interested in, like, the impact you're tryna have on people through your product through the market, that also is, is just as good. You know, both is ideal, um, so it can be tricky. Some companies don't have that, like, luxury. That's where I think a content marketer is a great broker. They are passionate about creating connections and relationships with people that are really passionate about those things, and getting content from them.

[00:05:30] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:30] Mark: Right? And then that, that means they're more of a strategist. And also, the great content marketers or writers understand how content plus performance-based, you know, marketing demand and revenue marketing plus community building can all work together to create this superpower.

[00:05:46] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:46] Mark: You know, if you just think about content in isolation, but you're not considering how to, um, take that content and use it, like you said across marketing sales and CS and also how to use it to, you know, create a spark for community growth or continue that, you know, community fire, you're also probably not getting as much efficiency as you could be from your content.

[00:06:04] Alina Vandenberghe: So now you're at [inaudible 00:06:06], um, how do you think about the community, uh, links for your content as well? Where, where are you building your community? Is it Slack? Is it LinkedIn? Is it Facebook? Where do you go?

[00:06:15] Mark: Uh, [inaudible 00:06:16] similar to [inaudible 00:06:16]. It's like it's LinkedIn, right

[00:06:16] Alina Vandenberghe: Okay.

[00:06:16] Mark: LinkedIn is the ICP. I'd say though we're building it through people. Like, I'm a big believer in this, what I call a people first go to market.

[00:06:24] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:25] Mark: A company first go to market, right? We can talk about the difference between company and people first, but at the end of the day, people especially I know some of the questions you might around AI or, like, what I think about AI. You know, AI is, is gonna happen, but at end of the day, like, people are what, what, what, what makes a experience something special that you remember. Are you gonna remember the AI? You will remember the outcome. The AI is gonna have to get to an outcome, but at the end the day, it's like, people, right? So we believe, or I believe in, you know, [inaudible 00:06:57] live experiences.

[00:06:58] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:58] Mark: Live experience is the best way to kinda create content out of scale, too. So you have a live experience, you create content from that, and then you create more content in the form of clips, commercials, whatever.

[00:07:09] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:09] Mark: And it's such a more efficient way to go to market.

[00:07:11] Alina Vandenberghe: So your community stays in the experience for the event and also an extension on LinkedIn. Um, but what percentage of your pipeline comes from marketing?

[00:07:22] Mark: Uh, right now, it's about 70 to 80% from marketing.

[00:07:25] Alina Vandenberghe: So a big chunk?

[00:07:26] Mark: Big chunk, big chunk. We wanna have that more balanced, but my goal is to have every, no matter if it's marketing, sales, service, right, it's never perfect map. 90% plus of every opportunity created, marketing has minimum one [inaudible 00:07:39].

[00:07:38] Alina Vandenberghe: [inaudible 00:07:39].

[00:07:39] Mark: ... minimum.

[00:07:39] Alina Vandenberghe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:40] Mark: Minimum. So-

[00:07:41] Alina Vandenberghe: It helps.

[00:07:41] Mark: ... and that's when we started Drift. Nine outta 10 opportunities, marketing influence in some way.

[00:07:45] Alina Vandenberghe: And how did you, uh, do that at Drift? Is it, was it paid, or was it different?

[00:07:50] Mark: It was mostly through organic social, organic search. We did do some paid stuff, I mean, content syndication-

[00:07:57] Alina Vandenberghe: Oh.

[00:07:58] Mark: ... you know, I don't know. It's like, it may be very [inaudible 00:08:00] to get people into the, into the database. I think there's just so many more ways you can do it, right? Like, you could partner with people. You could partner with brands. They have an audience that's similar audience that you're tryna go after. From an ICP standpoint, similar value. I, I think this whole idea of, like, partner-led or ec- ecosystem-led, you know, kinda growth is super hard these days. Uh, especially with like, I feel their algorithms are what marketers have been using for a long time. Those algorithms are getting more crowded.

[00:08:28] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:28] Mark: They're getting more, uh, comp- competitive, their, AI is taking them over. So like, how can you kinda work yourself away from those? To some degree, you still need 'em, but to some degree, how do you work yourself away from them? Partner with people and, and brands that, you know, that have the same kinda belief as your company, if you will.

[00:08:45] Alina Vandenberghe: So, uh, let's, uh, take an example. You have a sales rep that has an opportunity open. Um, how do you nurture that opportunity from a marketing standpoint of view? What will be the ideal way, um, and how you, how you done it in the past?

[00:08:59] Mark: It's a good question. So what, I take the tact of, like, I wanna be very aligned with sales all the time. But when it comes to open opportunities, I wanna make sure that marketing doesn't do something to overwhelm, confuse the buyer, right? Like, do anything to jeopardize what the account executive is, is working on.

[00:09:18] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:18] Mark: So what I do is every... One very high level tactical thing that I do is, every Monday, I set out a, I send out a company-wide communication for the Monday marketing minute.

[00:09:27] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:27] Mark: And it's broken down into three things. Brand, pipeline, and people.

[00:09:31] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:32] Mark: And I'm explaining to the little company, here's what's going on in marketing, and here's what we're doing with sales, here's what we're doing with CS. And what I'm tryna do is educate both at, you know, a high level every week, but also, on a tactical level during our pipeline review meetings. During our program meetings, we use an integrated campaign approach [inaudible 00:09:48] to make sure that sales knows what they can use to help the buyer buy. And at the end of the day 'cause we're a small team, work with the sales rep indirectly or the sales leader. You know, we don't have a huge sales team and say like, Look, you have these open opportunities. Uh, what if we did an executive online events with our CEO and say, me, Would, would you think that would help? You know, put these over the finish line to some degree, right? Convince them that we're a better solution. We're a different solution. Of course, we'll do something more unique than just hosting on an event. We'll incorporate some type of experiential thing into that, but just ask it. Just like say, like, Look, like, we're thinking about doing this defined audience, very tactical, would you invite your opportunities to that, right?

[00:10:33] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:34] Mark: So I think sometimes you gotta do, like, these broad-based things that are, like, rituals that happen every week to make sure the team knows what's going on in marketing. Internal marketing is super important. But then just get into the weeds too, right? Unless you have, like, dozens and dozens and dozens of sellers, just working with them on a weekly basis at a, at a tactical level is where I found the most success.

[00:10:54] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:54] Mark: That's what I did at HubSpot. You know, HubSpot, how the sales team got to use Academy was like, I went to every sales team on a regular basis to teach them what we were doing, how they could leverage it, and I brought people on the sales team that we did things with to help close deals. So I'd say, Hey, so-and-so account executive, can you talk to your sales, uh, you know, your team about how you use this thing to close this big deal. That's the best thing you can do. Once you have sellers vouching for you as a marketer, game over, I think 'cause everyone listens to, to the people who are bringing in the money.

[00:11:25] Alina Vandenberghe: I'm gonna take a step back and ask you, what do you think are the top two skills for a marketer to succeed in their growth path to getting to a CMO role?

[00:11:36] Mark: I'd say we only talked about one of them, like, super curious.

[00:11:39] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:39] Mark: You gotta love learning and creating hypotheses and I think the other thing would be collaboration.

[00:11:46] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:47] Mark: To become a CMO, like, I view CMOs as the uniter of the C-suite.

[00:11:50] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:50] Mark: They have to drive a lot of the go to market.

[00:11:53] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:53] Mark: Um, ultimately, the CEO, I think should make all the go to market decisions-

[00:11:56] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:56] Mark: ... 'cause, like, it's the business and the CEO does that. But the CMO and the CEO need to be super tightly aligned and the CMO is helping bring the CEO's vision to life. And helping the CEO understand the market better, understand the signals, and, and, and actually operationalize that from, like, an account standpoint, uh, persona intense standpoint, uh, and then align that across sales, CS and product.

[00:12:19] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:19] Mark: Um, and just really understand, if I didn't give a third one, the Great Ones also understand the financial side of marketing.

[00:12:26] Alina Vandenberghe: Hmm.

[00:12:27] Mark: There's a huge financial side of marketing that is talked about in the concept of budgets, but no, no, no, no like, a budget is a set of numbers or figures. It's all about then, like, how do you articulate what each of those budget line items are actually doing for the team, or doing the company, or doing for the market in telling that story out?

[00:12:46] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:46] Mark: Uh, so the, the last one would be... I'm giving you four now, will be storytelling. They gotta tell stories, which I guess is kinda part of communication.

[00:12:53] Alina Vandenberghe: Hmm. I am curious with one of the things that you mentioned. Since as the CMO and the CEO have to be so well aligned on the go to market, do you find that the companies that are most successful have a founder that is understanding of marketing?

[00:13:09] Mark: Big time. Yeah, I- I'm luckily, been, uh, lucky enough to been at three companies, HubSpot, Drift, and [inaudible 00:13:14] with high has been just super tightly immense.

[00:13:17] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:18] Mark: I, I, I advise a few companies and I, and that's one of the key things I hone in on. It's like, you gotta make sure that the CEO and minimum CMO and, and CRO are aligned, they understand why they're taking this strategy and putting into the market today, but then also, in the next two, three years. Like, what is the ultimate, like, growth for the next two, three years? Um, you know, any misalignment is a point of friction. Friction slows things down. You don't wanna be... You wanna be moving as fast as you can honestly, right?

[00:13:48] Alina Vandenberghe: And I'm, I'm seeing that the tenure for CMOs is so short in SAS, right? Do you have an exception? But the tenure of CMOs is so short, and I truly believe that there's a misalignment problem.

[00:13:59] Mark: There- there's definitely misalignment, right? And like, that starts at the moment you start talking about the position. Like, what is your vision for the, the future of the company? How do you see the, the go to market panning out? How important is marketing? What's the story when you see marketing's involvements and role in the whole thing?

[00:14:15] Alina Vandenberghe: What are, uh, some of the top, uh, tactics that marketers use to make the most out of their events? What makes for a successful event?

[00:14:22] Mark: Okay, uh, you're talking on in-person or online?

[00:14:25] Alina Vandenberghe: Let's do online.

[00:14:26] Mark: Online? Uh, planning.

[00:14:28] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:29] Mark: The biggest mistake with online events, 30-minute webinars, standard webinars, bigger events, they don't plan enough. The golden rule for me is five to seven X, a length of the event. So if your event is 30 minutes, you need minimum two and a half hours of planning. That includes the run a show, the speaker prep, the distribution plan, and also, how you're gonna reuse that content after the event.

[00:14:49] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:49] Mark: You need a solid brief. I'm still blown away by how many marketers don't either use briefs, or don't, or don't, um, build out a brief enough.

[00:14:59] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:59] Mark: And it could save you so much time and money and resources. Because if you thought about this one event and all the things that you could get from it, both when that happens, but also, before and after, you might have to, you might be able to cut down, you know, the rest of your marketing activities by 20 or 30%.

[00:15:14] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:15] Mark: Because you're able to, like, squeeze more from that orange.

[00:15:17] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:17] Mark: More from that event.

[00:15:18] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:18] Mark: So planning is number one. And the number two is, uh, for online events, you need, you need, it goes back to the question about content and content marketers is passionate people, energetic hosts. You gotta, you gotta keep 'em dynamic, fast moving, interesting, almost like a TV show. You, you, you, you, you cannot do PowerPoint anymore. If you do PowerPoint, Google Slides you can't have more than six or seven.

[00:15:38] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:39] Mark: Like, you, you... And you need to be, you, you need to, you need to think a lot differently. I'll just say that.

[00:15:43] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:43] Mark: Um, there's more I can unpack there, but, you know, I'll stop there.

[00:15:46] Alina Vandenberghe: Engagement, uh, is key. Obviously, a lot of, uh, people are tuning out if you don't keep them entertained and the attention span these days is narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow.

[00:15:57] Mark: And it go- it goes for in-person events too. Like, if you think pe- you think people, uh, don't pay attention to online events. You know, there's a lot of people at in-person events that are on their phone or computer.

[00:16:05] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:06] Mark: I mean, yes, they might be taking notes, they might be doing something else, but like, I mean, at end of the day, they're not looking up. They're not, like, 100% paying attention. So I always tell people, like, it's different, all right? Like, it's a different, it's a different environment, right? 'Cause with in-person, you activate all the senses.

[00:16:18] Alina Vandenberghe: It's emotion.

[00:16:19] Mark: It's, it's more emotional, right?

[00:16:21] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:21] Mark: But that goes to online. The last thing I'll say about online is, you gotta include your audience in the event.

[00:16:26] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:27] Mark: If you make an online event one-way and it's not two-way and you're not including the audience as much as you can in the event experience, experience, i- it's gonna be not as successful. Because an in-person event, everyone is being included to some degree in the experience.

[00:16:39] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, uh, used to, uh, do presentations at big events, and I would talk a lot about, uh, actionable things and I would go through my list and this is what I've done and this is what I've learned. And I was observing that the less of that I was doing and more emotional, uh, inclusion of things that I'm going through, uh, challenges that I'm going through personally, or, um, just sharing my humanity has, uh, people no longer looking at their phones [laughs].

[00:17:12] Mark: [laughs]

[00:17:12] Alina Vandenberghe: And we've... I just had a keynote today and 99% of the people were watching, so I think I've nailed the emotional part.

[00:17:20] Mark: I agree.

[00:17:20] Alina Vandenberghe: Um, but I do think that there's a lot more to be done at the live event to make it even more engaging.

[00:17:28] Mark: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:28] Alina Vandenberghe: What are some of the tactics that you've seen that are paying dividends?

[00:17:31] Mark: It's, it's interesting. Like, so you talked about, like, storytelling, right? There that, that you, you tell stories and you captivate an audience through the story. And then if they want the tactics, guess what, they can just watch your video online.

[00:17:41] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:41] Mark: So why don't you tell the story to the audience? I inverted almost, right? Like, the tactics, there's so many tactics [inaudible 00:17:46].

[00:17:45] Alina Vandenberghe: I can put the blog posts and it's easier.

[00:17:47] Mark: Blog posts, clip it up, right? Like, it's actually a good thing because then you're driving people to your brand and another media. But anyway, that is, for in-person engagements, I, I, I do think less content. Like, I actually think more and if it's gonna be content, you have to have great speakers like yourself who can tell captivating stories, or you have to have an included... You have to include the audience in the, in the session. So some things I've seen recently are like, 30 or 40 person rounds-

[00:18:14] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:14] Mark: ... where it's intimate. It's like you know, that's, that's the audience size, but you're in a circle, or you're in a rectangle and like, you all you can see each other. So when you s-... When other people see each other, it's a lot harder for you to not pay attention.

[00:18:26] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:26] Mark: Because you're like, Well, why are these people paying attention? What's going on here, right?

[00:18:28] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:29] Mark: To me, the simplest thing people can do is just have a way from an AV standpoint for the audience to ask questions throughout the presentation-

[00:18:36] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:37] Mark: ... and for you to walk into the audience.

[00:18:39] Alina Vandenberghe: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:39] Mark: I learned this from Marcus Sheridan way back, it's like, get into the audience. Why are you onto the stage, right? In an online experience, it's all kinda commingled, right? 'Cause it's online. But you're on the stage, yeah, I'm on the stage. What if you could walk around? I know it's harder to then capture things and whatnot. But like, you know, going up to someone in an in-person event with a microphone, getting them to maybe talk, getting them to maybe engage, people are gonna pay attention. Because they'll be like, Whoa, is he... They're gonna come to me? Is she comin' over here? Like, what, you know. So I think just some simple things that require maybe some more planning, but it's, it's breaking the status quo.